Shipper tendencies

[gategrrl]

Can someone explain to me why there's such a compelling need to sexualize and Romantic-ize characters? I've been there myself, but I seem to have gone past that as a "serious" endeavor. I'll *play* with characters and their sexuality -- but the *need* to pair them up romantically just isn't a priority, and it seems so unnecessary, and somewhat Mary Sueish, especially if it's certain types of het and slash writing.

It's not so much the sexualizing -- that I get, it's fun to imagine your favorite characters whupping it up with the whipped cream and cherries, and get down and dirty and sweaty. But at the same time, what I'm puzzled more about is the need to Harlequinnize decent characters who already have complex, nonsexual relationships with each other, that get totally boring when they DO get together.

Anyone?

Comments

[graculus.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's sexualising the characters so much as domesticating them - I want hot sweaty sex between character A and B, not curtain shopping and agonising over whether the couch should go beside the door or under the window. I resent anything that takes away the complexity of the characters and replaces it with Stepford Wife syndrome (and yes, this applies equally to slash, see beaglefic for details).

In other words, I want A and B to be having the rich, exciting and incredibly flexible sex life I'm not having at the moment. ;)

[gategrrl.livejournal.com]

BEAGLEFIC!!!! Augh!

LOL, no really, hee. :-D

I think you said it so much better than I did. I guess it's the domestication of interesting characters into cliche'ic roles that are a hundred times more boring than their onscreen selves (which is amazing for Jack and Sam, because I find them both now incredibly boring even *without* the shipping).

What you're talking about here is part of the equation. It's not the "Wheee! let's see what they do!" ficwriters that make me cringe, because that *can* be fun...it's the "Must.Ship.These.Two.Together."

Sometimes even the inclusion of sex, aside from the domestication you brought up, is ... besides the point, I guess. I'm not against sex, or any of that in fic (I've written it too)...

I guess I'll have to go with what you've posted. Because I can't seem to come up with anything better, that wouldn't be insulting to those that worship shipping and adore pairing characters up together like the animals in Noah's ark.

[graculus.livejournal.com]

What you're talking about here is part of the equation. It's not the "Wheee! let's see what they do!" ficwriters that make me cringe, because that *can* be fun...it's the "Must.Ship.These.Two.Together."

And my immediate response to that is usually "No, you really mustn't". I too have an immense dislike for knee-jerk adolescent attempts to pair everyone off as if they have no worth unless they're part of a couple (so you could have Sam&Jack and Daniel&Janet because then Jack won't have to worry about being Daniel's best friend because he'll be with someone and therefore he can concentrate on Sammypoos like he ought to). Because we know that unless you have a boyfriend or girlfriend you're going to go and throw yourself under a bus Right Now! :P

I guess for me, the other question is this: do you want to be part of the relationship or do you want to watch? Is what's driving some people the desperate need to project themselves into this banal version of domestic bliss, so much so that they suck the life and originality out of the characters in order to warp them into the characters they'd have to be in order to be that dull?

[gategrrl.livejournal.com]

Be my guru! :-D

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

I am not sure where you are going with this since I left my brain on South Main St next to the prostitutes by the park.

Anyway, being a gen kinda gal, I love a bit of tension between characters, whether it's sexual or not, but don't see the need to pair them unless it works. I am speaking original fic here.

For fanfic, I'll ship or slash if I want to play with a different dynamic or for a challenge. Doesn't mean I believe it. But it helps me flex my artistic muscles so to speak.

So, I am not sure what you are asking here...

[gategrrl.livejournal.com]

I guess...I've noticed a need to hook up two characters who already have a fascinating relationship that does NOT involve sex...and then, as Grac says above, make them *boring* by domesticating them.

I'm mostly speaking of fanfic, not original fic, because original fic is wholly created by that writer.

(prostitutes by the park?? wow, you're really having a day, aren't you! **pets Moonshayde**)

I guess...I've been bushwacked lately by the insistence of other posters on OS, frex, about the Daniel/Vala shippiness -- and many of these folks detest the Jack/Sam ship, whereas for me, they're both the same (only the Daniel - Vala relationship is infinitely more complex and interesting).

And it's the whole "shippy-tude" that I've grown to detest in general. It's so squee-girly. I'm not expressing myself well.

I don't mind playing with the characters: I do that too: it's the zealotness of it. The OTPingness of it.

And I'm grumpy. >:-(

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

Ah, my friend. Can we say hypocritical?

*whistles and slinks back into the shadows before the Daniel/Vala people kill her*

[graculus.livejournal.com]

I have to say, I've yet to see a het pairing that does much for me. Because usually they're done with the sledgehammer of shippiness and I prefer at least a little subtlety.

Why does detesting SamJack mean people aren't allowed to like Daniel/Vala? Unless you're saying people like it because it's not SamJack and haven't we had quite enough of those kind of accusations on OS? I'm sure there are some people where that is their reaction, but others doubtless would ship anyone with whom Daniel had that kind of spark or genuinely just like the concept of that pairing.

Of course, if tptb get anywhere near it, all the fun will get sucked right out of it, and serve the shippers right. ;)

[superbadgirl]

"I guess...I've been bushwacked lately by the insistence of other posters on OS, frex, about the Daniel/Vala shippiness -- and many of these folks detest the Jack/Sam ship, whereas for me, they're both the same (only the Daniel - Vala relationship is infinitely more complex and interesting)."

I do not buy the Daniel/Vala ship for one second. Sure, the characters have chemistry together...but you can have chemistry without it being romantic. There is nothing romantic shippy about those two. Maybe folks want to see them 'do it', but while it would be in Vala's character to fuck without feelings, I don't think the same is true of Daniel. I guess that's my own perception of his character.

Back to your actual question, I can't answer because I cannot figure it out. There are people who will watch shows simply to ship/slash characters who are 'hot', and that boggles. It might be a completely different subject also. ;)

[amycooper.livejournal.com]

Uhh...I never really got it either, except for the fact that it makes great inspiration for Badfics, which I'm pretty sure isn't the purpose.

[gategrrl.livejournal.com]

Yes, plenty of those to go around.

I remember one Jack/Sam fic in particular, at GW (have I mentioned this one before?) that I can't shake out of my mind. It was posted shortly before Xmas time two years ago. It detailed Sam going about her day, getting their two sons ready for church(!), and how beautifully decorated with a tree and ornaments their house was...and how happy she was with Jack, cuz he was going to go to church with them, and they'd light some candles....

It was decently written, as in, the grammar, etc was fine. But it barfed dog cakes, mostly because the characters weren't really the Stargate characters -- it was the writer and her husband, and she wrote a coy little afterward saying, "Well, now you know what my family is doing for the holidays!"

I will have to wash my brain, now that I've thought of that fic again. can't seem to get rid of it, for some reason. It was appalling.

[graculus.livejournal.com]

That's a ghastly piece of self-insertion.

I've long held the suspicion that many many SamJack shippers use Carter as their MarySue fuckpuppet so they can shag Jack/RDA and that is their sole interest in the whole thing. Thank you for providing me with evidence at last! :P

[amycooper.livejournal.com]

Ouch...that's....ouch! I will be sure to avoid this fic you speak of. \

*hands over some bleach*

I don't mind shipping and slashing. I'm willing to read nearly any type of combination of pairings in Stargate (though I do avoid Jack/Sam). I guess in my mind I'm interested in all possibilities. However, the characters must be believable and interesting (and here's why I avoid most Jack/Sam fics). Its not that Jack/Sam won't be interesting to dabble with for a while, but in my mind you have to deal with the fact that 1. it is against the regs, 2. while it may be fun for both at first, let's face it, they don't have enough common interests and 3. I've seen enough ship on screen (unfortunately), so you really have to do something different to interest me here.

There's the Jack/Daniel fics I categorize as "Jack must be Daniel's care giver because Daniel can't even tie his shoe laces on his own, but is oh so important to the Stargate program/Jack/Jack's penis." Now I love Jack/Daniel pairings, but these fics make me cringe. Daniel's an orphan that's lived in an alien culture and more and has been fighting the Gou'ald for something like 10 years. Ugh! It is way to out of character for Daniel for me to follow.

[crazymadjo.livejournal.com]

One person's "boring" is another's "squee!" ??

[gategrrl.livejournal.com]

That's what it comes down to...

Why pair them up? Why pair any character up? What is the *need*? What's the compulsion? Because with the more ideologic shippers, who ship anyone and their dog, WHY? Is it because they're frustrated yentas? To see someone be happy?

[crazymadjo.livejournal.com]

Because they enjoy it?

We all have our kinks. *eg*

[amycooper.livejournal.com]

I read gen, het and slash. When looking for a fanfic to read, I don't go, "Gee, I wanna read some Teal'c/Daniel tonight." I look for a story that seems interesting. I look for a story that will entertain me. In my mind I see canon SG-1 as very close (though not physically or romantically) therefore it isn't too hard for me to "buy" a relationship between any of the characters becoming more romantic (or physically). I do try to stay away from the dynamic I was discussing before (where one member of the relationship is overly dependent on the other) because I just don't see any support for it in cannon. I won't even like it in AU, perhaps because I just don't like that dynamic at all. Period. With anyone.

[orange852.livejournal.com]

I think pro writers of all genres 'ship because romance is the best selling genre of fiction out there or, alternatively, because sex sells.

I think fanwriters 'ship because they've bought what they've been sold.

I've seen it argued that romance is the bestselling fiction genre of all time because it tells (and re-tells, ad infinitum) the most comforting story a human can be told: the formation of a successful pairbond that ensures the survival of the species in a world made better by the couple's effort or struggles. What's the point of SG-1 repeatedly saving the world if they don't get to live happily ever after in it? And who is the worthiest reward for one of our heroes but one of the others?

I think some people see marriage and babies as the only possible happy ending for a story of any genre, (which is the only rational explanation I've been able to figure for the otherwise baffling genre of slash, MPREG) else why would the protagonists have worked so hard to resolve the conflict? I can never decide if this insults marriage and parenthood more because it implies there are no more interesting mountains to climb after the wedding or because it makes it sound as if passing on genes is the only real contribution people make.

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

What's the point of SG-1 repeatedly saving the world if they don't get to live happily ever after in it?

But how does ship come into that? Last time I checked SG-1 had four people. So unless they are having a foursome...

[orange852.livejournal.com]

Heh. I'd be up for that.

Some of my favorite stories of Quercus's pair off Teal'c and Sam, then Jack and Daniel.

[amycooper.livejournal.com]

Ah so is that what they're really doing on all these off-world missions?

[purpleshrub.livejournal.com]

You mean... you don't need to be in a relationship to be happy? ....blink blink....

I guess I'd go with what some of you have been alluding to and say there's an idea a lot of us are brought up with that success alone isn't enough for contentment. How often have you heard "It's better to have loved and lost than never loved at all?" Why is that? Why is it assumed that people who never married have somehow "failed" at life even if they had a great job and friends?

I'd guess some of what drives ship is also wanting to see the romantic ideal realized. In real life, in anything as idealized as romance or let's say beauty, it's never so simple as "I love," "I love you," "Let's live happily ever after." Even if it's not blatently self-projection onto the characters, in fiction reaching what represents ideal (to you at least) is possible.

Actually the answer is I have no idea where the need to pair them off comes from, though I've recognized it too. Although the fact that I (and you apparently) tend to find those stories boring is a bit subjective, don't you think? Clearly those stories are doing something for a lot of people, or there wouldn't be so many written.
(Since I don't even know what I'm saying I'll be quiet now).

[gategrrl.livejournal.com]

I (and you apparently) tend to find those stories boring is a bit subjective, don't you think? Clearly those stories are doing something for a lot of people, or there wouldn't be so many written.


Of course it's subjective. Although, as Grac has pointed out, it's when characters get domesticated and hit with globs of smarm and taken out of the context of their shows (mileau) ... then, what's the point of the shipping? Although that's not exactly the metaquestion that's been bandied about.

Nialla's pointed out that the Romance Genre industry is the largest of all the published genres and mainstream fiction. Heck, I've even got a few Susan Krinards on my bookshelf (she writes incredibly hot [het werewolf] sex). So, there's no denying that it's a huge 900 pound gorilla that wears Rodney Dangerfield's sign on its chest that "I don't get no respect."

So, I don't neccessarily find them *boring* -- just, when it comes to onscreen televised episodic fiction (ie a program like Stargate) is it really necessary to shoehorn in Romance everyway it can be done, so that it's overstuffed and sticking out of the seams? That's on the production side of it.

Perhaps its the overwhelming Disneyfication with the old fairy tales of the Girl Getting her Boy, or the other way around...and, if you look at Stargate specifically, it does have a lot of fairytale parallels. (they aren't that far from mythology, after all)

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

It's just so pretictible on tv and in the movies.

I have nothing against romance at all. I am just tired of seeing on Tv and in the movies. Especially when it's not done very well.

But then again, how do we define "well" anyway?

[amycooper.livejournal.com]

I think that there is a lot of difference between types of slash or ship stories. I'm really not found of the "And so they married and live happily every after" stories. There's a lot of them out there, yes. But there is a lot of other stories out there as well. I like the problems, the conflicts, that sprout up in life. I tend to like stories that either have a plot other than "Character A loves Character B."