Shipper tendencies

[gategrrl]

Can someone explain to me why there's such a compelling need to sexualize and Romantic-ize characters? I've been there myself, but I seem to have gone past that as a "serious" endeavor. I'll *play* with characters and their sexuality -- but the *need* to pair them up romantically just isn't a priority, and it seems so unnecessary, and somewhat Mary Sueish, especially if it's certain types of het and slash writing.

It's not so much the sexualizing -- that I get, it's fun to imagine your favorite characters whupping it up with the whipped cream and cherries, and get down and dirty and sweaty. But at the same time, what I'm puzzled more about is the need to Harlequinnize decent characters who already have complex, nonsexual relationships with each other, that get totally boring when they DO get together.

Anyone?

Comments

[graculus.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's sexualising the characters so much as domesticating them - I want hot sweaty sex between character A and B, not curtain shopping and agonising over whether the couch should go beside the door or under the window. I resent anything that takes away the complexity of the characters and replaces it with Stepford Wife syndrome (and yes, this applies equally to slash, see beaglefic for details).

In other words, I want A and B to be having the rich, exciting and incredibly flexible sex life I'm not having at the moment. ;)

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

I am not sure where you are going with this since I left my brain on South Main St next to the prostitutes by the park.

Anyway, being a gen kinda gal, I love a bit of tension between characters, whether it's sexual or not, but don't see the need to pair them unless it works. I am speaking original fic here.

For fanfic, I'll ship or slash if I want to play with a different dynamic or for a challenge. Doesn't mean I believe it. But it helps me flex my artistic muscles so to speak.

So, I am not sure what you are asking here...

[amycooper.livejournal.com]

Uhh...I never really got it either, except for the fact that it makes great inspiration for Badfics, which I'm pretty sure isn't the purpose.

[gategrrl.livejournal.com]

I guess...I've noticed a need to hook up two characters who already have a fascinating relationship that does NOT involve sex...and then, as Grac says above, make them *boring* by domesticating them.

I'm mostly speaking of fanfic, not original fic, because original fic is wholly created by that writer.

(prostitutes by the park?? wow, you're really having a day, aren't you! **pets Moonshayde**)

I guess...I've been bushwacked lately by the insistence of other posters on OS, frex, about the Daniel/Vala shippiness -- and many of these folks detest the Jack/Sam ship, whereas for me, they're both the same (only the Daniel - Vala relationship is infinitely more complex and interesting).

And it's the whole "shippy-tude" that I've grown to detest in general. It's so squee-girly. I'm not expressing myself well.

I don't mind playing with the characters: I do that too: it's the zealotness of it. The OTPingness of it.

And I'm grumpy. >:-(

[gategrrl.livejournal.com]

BEAGLEFIC!!!! Augh!

LOL, no really, hee. :-D

I think you said it so much better than I did. I guess it's the domestication of interesting characters into cliche'ic roles that are a hundred times more boring than their onscreen selves (which is amazing for Jack and Sam, because I find them both now incredibly boring even *without* the shipping).

What you're talking about here is part of the equation. It's not the "Wheee! let's see what they do!" ficwriters that make me cringe, because that *can* be fun...it's the "Must.Ship.These.Two.Together."

Sometimes even the inclusion of sex, aside from the domestication you brought up, is ... besides the point, I guess. I'm not against sex, or any of that in fic (I've written it too)...

I guess I'll have to go with what you've posted. Because I can't seem to come up with anything better, that wouldn't be insulting to those that worship shipping and adore pairing characters up together like the animals in Noah's ark.

[gategrrl.livejournal.com]

Yes, plenty of those to go around.

I remember one Jack/Sam fic in particular, at GW (have I mentioned this one before?) that I can't shake out of my mind. It was posted shortly before Xmas time two years ago. It detailed Sam going about her day, getting their two sons ready for church(!), and how beautifully decorated with a tree and ornaments their house was...and how happy she was with Jack, cuz he was going to go to church with them, and they'd light some candles....

It was decently written, as in, the grammar, etc was fine. But it barfed dog cakes, mostly because the characters weren't really the Stargate characters -- it was the writer and her husband, and she wrote a coy little afterward saying, "Well, now you know what my family is doing for the holidays!"

I will have to wash my brain, now that I've thought of that fic again. can't seem to get rid of it, for some reason. It was appalling.

[crazymadjo.livejournal.com]

One person's "boring" is another's "squee!" ??

[gategrrl.livejournal.com]

That's what it comes down to...

Why pair them up? Why pair any character up? What is the *need*? What's the compulsion? Because with the more ideologic shippers, who ship anyone and their dog, WHY? Is it because they're frustrated yentas? To see someone be happy?

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

Ah, my friend. Can we say hypocritical?

*whistles and slinks back into the shadows before the Daniel/Vala people kill her*

[crazymadjo.livejournal.com]

Because they enjoy it?

We all have our kinks. *eg*

[gategrrl.livejournal.com]

I'm obviously going through some meta phase here, questioning what does not make "sense" to me, because my brain is not comprehending the motivation, nor does it want to.

*sighs*

[gategrrl.livejournal.com]

Well...I'm not sure it's hypocritical, but to me it *does* stem from the same well as the Jack/Sam shippers -- I don't care if one pair has more chemistry than the other pair, it doesn't matter if, to me, both pairings are distasteful (for different reasons altogether) or that one pair is starcrossed because of regulations and other because she's a sexual predator (and I *like* that character).

It's just...I'm baffled, I tell you!

[crazymadjo.livejournal.com]

IMHO, the motivation to read/write stories where the characters are having hot monkey love 24/7, or living the Leave it to Beaver universe, or what-have-you is basically the same. We're living out any one of our personal fantasies through a set of characters we either identify with, or just really like, or both.

Does that help? Or am I missing the question entirely? :-)

[graculus.livejournal.com]

What you're talking about here is part of the equation. It's not the "Wheee! let's see what they do!" ficwriters that make me cringe, because that *can* be fun...it's the "Must.Ship.These.Two.Together."

And my immediate response to that is usually "No, you really mustn't". I too have an immense dislike for knee-jerk adolescent attempts to pair everyone off as if they have no worth unless they're part of a couple (so you could have Sam&Jack and Daniel&Janet because then Jack won't have to worry about being Daniel's best friend because he'll be with someone and therefore he can concentrate on Sammypoos like he ought to). Because we know that unless you have a boyfriend or girlfriend you're going to go and throw yourself under a bus Right Now! :P

I guess for me, the other question is this: do you want to be part of the relationship or do you want to watch? Is what's driving some people the desperate need to project themselves into this banal version of domestic bliss, so much so that they suck the life and originality out of the characters in order to warp them into the characters they'd have to be in order to be that dull?

[gategrrl.livejournal.com]

Well...I don't think I can go further with this, like I said, without insulting people I like.

I don't "get" why, deep down in the psyche, there's a need to pair up characters who are otherwise fine on their own. I think at heart I'm a genner who will delve into romance reading (here and there).

For instance, there's a series called House on TV now. I don't watch it, but from what I gather, the lead male character is a sarcastic, snarly sonuvabith doctor...who people just pair up left and right. Some of it is personal fantacism and Mary Sueism, but that's not entirely what I'm trying to *understand*. There are people (who I know few and far between) who will ship anything together, even on a show which has no romantic focus.

Obviously, folks will write what turns them on, hence, fanfiction. But I'm not talking fanfiction, exclusively. I'm talking about a *state of mind* that requires that any two characters the least bit attractive, be paired up like a stallion with mare to be covered. It is the constant need for romance? Anywhere?

[gategrrl.livejournal.com]

Be my guru! :-D

[graculus.livejournal.com]

I have to say, I've yet to see a het pairing that does much for me. Because usually they're done with the sledgehammer of shippiness and I prefer at least a little subtlety.

Why does detesting SamJack mean people aren't allowed to like Daniel/Vala? Unless you're saying people like it because it's not SamJack and haven't we had quite enough of those kind of accusations on OS? I'm sure there are some people where that is their reaction, but others doubtless would ship anyone with whom Daniel had that kind of spark or genuinely just like the concept of that pairing.

Of course, if tptb get anywhere near it, all the fun will get sucked right out of it, and serve the shippers right. ;)

[graculus.livejournal.com]

You're scaring me now. ;)

[graculus.livejournal.com]

That's a ghastly piece of self-insertion.

I've long held the suspicion that many many SamJack shippers use Carter as their MarySue fuckpuppet so they can shag Jack/RDA and that is their sole interest in the whole thing. Thank you for providing me with evidence at last! :P

[gategrrl.livejournal.com]

Hmmm.

Why does detesting SamJack mean people aren't allowed to like Daniel/Vala? Unless you're saying people like it because it's not SamJack and haven't we had quite enough of those kind of accusations on OS?

I'm not trying to sling mud around (I love/adore OS), honest. And no, I'm not saying it's because it is NOT Sam/Jack. (shivers) It's more like, what's with this? It's not the pairing itself that bugs me. It's the *why* the pairing. It's like...(to anyone with the inclination) "Oooo, look, she made him kiss her! Make him kiss her again!" I'm sticking my foot in my mouth. I guess, in a way, I'm a purist, and since these two characters are so well=drawn, to me, why *want* the show to make it happen? Again.

others doubtless would ship anyone with whom Daniel had that kind of spark

Uh huh. OTP, indiscriminate pairing...sure, as CrazymadJo is saying below here, it's What's Turns You On. It's this kind of mentality that baffles me. And it's not just hetters that make me scratch my head, it's slashers like this also, as you pointed out earlier.

Ah well. Since I don't know exactly what it is I'm trying to get at (this happens once in awhile).

[graculus.livejournal.com]

I don't "get" why, deep down in the psyche, there's a need to pair up characters who are otherwise fine on their own. I think at heart I'm a genner who will delve into romance reading (here and there).

I struggle with the people who'll only read slash (or ship) and who won't read gen. That to me says they have more invested in the sum of the 'relationship' they're reading about than they do in the individual parts. That the composite creature is more interesting than the characters who make it up and I find that quite sad, really. That or they're teenagers buying into the whole 'got to get me a man or I'm not a real woman' thing that some people never grow out of.

For myself, I tend to have a character I like more than the other characters and that's who I'm interested in reading about - gen or slash (assuming there's another character I like enough to pair them up with, which there isn't always), I'm easy where well-written fic about that character is concerned.

However, I don't read het. No matter who's involved. Never have, never will, doesn't interest me at all. It's not that I find it icky, it's more that I find it uninspiring. It does nothing for me. So, what does that say about me? ;)

[amycooper.livejournal.com]

Ouch...that's....ouch! I will be sure to avoid this fic you speak of. \

*hands over some bleach*

I don't mind shipping and slashing. I'm willing to read nearly any type of combination of pairings in Stargate (though I do avoid Jack/Sam). I guess in my mind I'm interested in all possibilities. However, the characters must be believable and interesting (and here's why I avoid most Jack/Sam fics). Its not that Jack/Sam won't be interesting to dabble with for a while, but in my mind you have to deal with the fact that 1. it is against the regs, 2. while it may be fun for both at first, let's face it, they don't have enough common interests and 3. I've seen enough ship on screen (unfortunately), so you really have to do something different to interest me here.

There's the Jack/Daniel fics I categorize as "Jack must be Daniel's care giver because Daniel can't even tie his shoe laces on his own, but is oh so important to the Stargate program/Jack/Jack's penis." Now I love Jack/Daniel pairings, but these fics make me cringe. Daniel's an orphan that's lived in an alien culture and more and has been fighting the Gou'ald for something like 10 years. Ugh! It is way to out of character for Daniel for me to follow.

[gategrrl.livejournal.com]

I have another friend for whom het fanfic has lost 98% of its shine. She's grown to much prefer slash and femslash -- more or less because of the required inventiveness of it, I'm guessing. And it's not the "approved" sexuality of our collective Western culture.

Hmm. I'm wondering if my reading background since I was kid has something to do with my "Wha?" noncomprehension right now. I grew up reading all those 1930-70's SF fiction in my pre and teen years, and we all know how constipated about Romance THOSE classic SF writers were. Geez. Talk about *nothing* -- and then in the seventies the glut of writers like Anne McCaffery and Marion Zimmer Bradley, who brought in a decidedly female "relationship" view, and female Mary Sues, into the predominately male stronghold of Science Fiction...and I can guess where I've gotten my general disdain for smarmy writing, or wish fulfillment, etc...not that I *don't* like these books here and there. But a story has to be damned good, if it's fanfiction, to carry off Romance.

Taking it back to my original question -- WTF is it with *needing* to pair perfectly fine characters up in a compulsive need for Romance?

I'm trying to think of the last time I seriously took a pairing (that wasn't canon on a show)....um...Jack/Paul Davis...no, that wasn't seriously, that was for self-entertainment completely tongue-in-cheek.

:::headdesk:::

[graculus.livejournal.com]

There's the Jack/Daniel fics I categorize as "Jack must be Daniel's care giver because Daniel can't even tie his shoe laces on his own, but is oh so important to the Stargate program/Jack/Jack's penis."

To me, that view of the Jack/Daniel dynamic says equally bad things about both characters: Jack wants to have someone who will utterly rely on him and Daniel is incapable of independent thought. The vibes are more incestuous than anything else. *shudders*

For me, the attraction for Jack/Daniel (or Daniel/Teal'c) is how you get two canonically strong independent and intelligent (well, Jack *was* intelligent till the DOED got to him) individuals and get them together. If you don't see them as independent and intelligent people, then why on earth would you care what they got up to?

[graculus.livejournal.com]

Taking it back to my original question -- WTF is it with *needing* to pair perfectly fine characters up in a compulsive need for Romance?

Sam Carter Syndrome? What use am I as an individual if I am not part of a couple? Does it matter if I can split the atom and negotiate peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians while also whipping up a nice cheese souffle when if I don't have a man I am worthless and useless?

There are loads of people out there whose self-worth is solely predicated by who they're with rather than who they are or what they accomplish. Societal pressures on women still push for them to be part of a couple rather than an individual and shipper tendencies are just that in spades.