Why the female protagonist just doesn't do it for you

[gategrrl]

Hi everyone!

I'm trying to write a short article on a subject some of you brought up when Rob Thurman's Cal Leandros series came up in conversation (as a group, you converted me, and I really like the series) a few months ago. It's been in my head ever since. The brief subject was, "I will never read a book with a female lead character and only read books with male lead characters."

Can you tell me more about this? Why this is so? Have you ever broken your own rule, and regretted it, or did not regret reading a female protag lead book but figured it was a fluke and you wouldn't do it again? Or the female POV just isn't interesting to you, even if the male POV is written by a woman (which you'd figure, is filtered through a female's POV anyhow).

All I have to go on are the reasons *I* think why, but I'd like to hear your own reasons, if you wouldn't mind telling me more about it. I think it's fascinating. I'm kind of in the same camp, but I have my own biases.

Comments

[forcryinoutloud.livejournal.com]

For me, it's mostly that the female POV is rather boring. *shrugs* The only exception for me tends to be Janet Evanovich because she makes her female characters interesting, fun, quirky. Characters I actually enjoy reading about and want to read more of.

I tried the Rachel Morgan series but as you know from my ranting, that went FAR south about book four - mostly for me because 1) she made Rachel do utterly STUPID stuff 2) she was FAR too determined to push the lesbian angle and 3) the men were simply a means to an end for her, being thrown out left and right to again, further the lesbian angle. *ugh*

I've tried Kathy Reich's first book. It was...alright. Not exactly compelling to me, at least not enough for me to spend money on the rest of the series. Though I can't really say if it's more that her Brennan just wasn't interesting enough for me or if it was just her style of writing that turned me off.

I've read a couple of Tami Hoag's and they were...again, alright. Didn't leave me wanting to read more though. One was MUCH to disturbingly graphic and twisted - which is simple dislike of a particular style more than a dislike of the female character and the other was just...boring. *shrugs*

Currently attempting Tanya Huff's Blood series. I just started the first book so can't really say one way or the other. I enjoyed the series, so I'm hoping the books are better.

Most of the books on my shelf though are from male POVs. Even if it's a female author (which is the case like with 90% of them), the male POV is just more interesting to me. Perhaps its that the author doesn't have to/feel the need to either use or try and get around the cliches that a female...whatever (detective, cop, lawyer, doctor or what have you) tend to be surrounded with. Personally, I don't want to read about a woman struggling in a man's world. I'm SICK of hearing about it quite honestly and I'm a woman!

If the book doesn't have any of that, none of that oh poor me, I'm a woman fighting against sexism bullshit, then I tend to actually enjoy it because instead of harping on and highlighting the idea that women are still not viewed equally, these books simply, MAKE them equal. That's what I want to read, a female character that is strong, capable, smart, funny, competent without then turning around and hearing her whine about how HARD it is to do all of those things because ALL men SUCK. *headdesk* And sure, it could be that these authors are attempting to bring to light something that needs to change, but they're going about it in a way that simply seems to say, geez man, look MORE whiny women, we must pity them. Instead of saying, wow, there's a totally competent, awesome woman that DESERVES equality.

But there are other turn offs too. I'm tired of reading books where the female lead is either a raving feminist that thinks all men should be put on an island and only contacted when a woman needs some sperm or where she's the pathetic woman pining after her boss or her best friend or her best friend's husband kind of thing or where she's the raving lunatic that secretly stalks her boyfriend cause she's just SURE he was looking a little too intently at the waitress at dinner kind of thing and is now entering bunny boiler stages of jealousy or where she's so career oriented that she looks down her nose at any woman stupid enough to procreate and want a family when obviously the only TRUE path to happiness is the almighty buck. *facepalm*

Sorry, sorry. Ranting stopped. :P So to recap, there's just not enough female POV books that present the female character in a light that makes her even remotely likeable or interesting for me. So I stick with what I like, which tends to be male oriented books because the authors are just better at portraying them in a more...balanced light than they are female ones.

[gategrrl.livejournal.com]

You hit the nail on the head when on what I was thinking the reasons are. Maybe YOU should write the article for Hathor, because you've already said it all! (seriously)

[forcryinoutloud.livejournal.com]

LOL! *grins* I think for the most part, those of us that have problems with female POVs in books feel the same way, for the same reasons. I'm often shocked to find women who actually enjoy some of the truly horrific portrayals of women in books (and TV and movies). Women that identify themselves as feminists (I'm not one of them), who are actually defending these horribly written women. *sigh* I think sometimes some feminists get stuck in this idea that they have to stick up for any and all portrayals of women rather than admitting that hey, sometimes the women being written really ARE that bad.

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

It's a problem that I have with feminism and this whole wimmin movement I see a lot on LJ. I am certianly not against promoting female characters. And to this day, I still consider myself a feminist and I am proud of the graduate training I have in the field.

However, I disagree so much with many of the independent feminist movements. I also don't think that much of "fandom" - whatever famdon that might be - really understands the depth and the conflict with feminism itself. Everyone is so quick to cry sexism or yay strong wimmin!, but without really peeling back the layers to take a deeper look.

And before I get slammed for saying that, I'm not implying that only people in the field can be critical. I often think that people in the field are not critical enough LOL I know plenty of people that can really look deeply into literature and flim for the sheer fact they are smart critical people. I just think that Tv, movies, fandom, whatever tends to have a very narrow viewpoint and they refuse to look beyond it.

[tejas.livejournal.com]

Everyone is so quick to cry sexism or yay strong wimmin!

I think my biggest problem is that too often the examples used to show "strong women" really *aren't*. Being able to kick alien/terrorist/bad guy ass doesn't automatically make a woman (or a man) strong, it just means she's got some fighting skills and a sense of self-preservation.

[forcryinoutloud.livejournal.com]

I agree that fandom...not all, but certainly a selection of it, has that narrow point of view. That they deem every female character death automatically makes the writer a misogynist. That we should all be somehow embracing and reveling in any and all female characters just by the sheer fact that they happen to have the same damn genitals as us *snort* without ever looking deeper and thinking, you know, perhaps that woman being killed actually furthers the story arc rather than proving the writer is a horrible misogynistic bastard, or perhaps, you know, that woman is actually written HORRIBLY and deserves the hate she's getting (not the woman herself, but the CHARACTER, big difference) rather than being deserving of said "feminists" adulation for her simply because of where her reproductive organs are located. It's rather sad really, to see these "feminists" actually hating on REAL women, their fellow fen, because said fen disagree with them about a fictional character.

I'll be the first to get on the Boo!Bandwagon if some writer actually IS being misogynistic but what qualifies as misogyny lately seems to be a writer not giving a female character QUEEN status but actually treating her like a real human being that makes mistakes, lives, dies. *snort* Apparently to these particular fannish poppets all women should be worshiped like goddesses, even if they're the worst written characters in the history of television, books and movies all put together. *facepalm*

[tejas.livejournal.com]

If you like military science fiction, may I suggest Elizabeth Moon's books? Her female protagonists are, well, just *women*. Highly competent, ordinarily flawed, have to deal with the consequences of their mistakes and so on. The only time I've seen her touch on more overtly feminist issues (as opposed to the basic subversion of accepted equality and now sad is it that it's subversive at all ;-) was a situation where the society was the "other" being dealt with.

Also, Kristine Smith's books (series of five, I think) have a similar feel. Her protagonist has so many other issues (being modified with alien DNA is a real pain) that it's a good thing being female isn't part of the problem.

[forcryinoutloud.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the suggestions! :) I'll check them out and see if they seem like something I might like. *g*

[tejas.livejournal.com]

Hope you do. They're both terrific writers.

[obelix]

I won't say that I won't read books where there is a female protagonist but it's rare. Typically I prefer male protagonists simply because I relate better to the male point of view that is used then to the female point of view that is found in most books. I like my characters flawed but strong and most female characters are either perfect or whimpy and I hate whimpy. Half the time I want to reach through the pages and strangle the woman for being wishy washy or only thinking about how she can please a man instead of doing what it is she's suppose to be doing. The fate of the world is on her shoulder but she thinks about how she looks and whether male A will find her attractive? Yeuch!

The other big reason is the rape scenario that always seem to be there hanging around the female heroine as the one thing to motivate her into doing something or the other one is the mother thing. Yes I get it being a mother is important but it's like the only motivation possible for a woman is either revenge because of rape or protecting her children thing and of course the doing it for her man. What about other motivations? Males get other motivations like the fate of humankind or greed or any other motivations but women very rarely. And yes it's nice but it's narrow in perspective and cliche and that annoys me.

However if I do find a female protagonist that doesn't fit the mold then I'll read pretty much everything with her in it.

It's all a matter of my being to relate to the character and I usually don't with typical female protagonists.

Hope this makes sense ;-)

[gategrrl.livejournal.com]

Does the age of the heroine have anything to do with it, you think? The fact that most female protagonists are in their teens, twenties and rarely in their mid-30s and older?

Genevieve Scelan in Spiral Hunt (based in Boston) is the only heroine in recent Urban Fantasy books that I can remember who said she was 30 or 31. I'll have to check. All the other ones ar in the twenties.

As I get older--I'm 44 now--as much as I like younger heroes/heroines, I find there's a black hole when it comes to female protagonists who are older than 35. If they exist, they're always secondary characters.

[obelix]

My first thought is no, it's not the age but the attitude. The attitude of young male protagonists I can still relate too however even if the female protagonists are older their tendency to be rooted in motherhood just doesn't relate to my life or my viewpoint.

I think that's were I disconnect the most since I'm not a mother and will never be I just can't relate to that part of the female protagonist psyche. I'm also very independent and I'm more the kind of person who will be proactive in situations and not wait passively for something to happen which are generally traits associated to female protagonists. It also happens with male protagonists but their motivation is more, and this isn't necessarily the right word but the only one I can think of, noble and more broad.

On the other hand the lack of street smarts a lot of female protagonists have and the infantile reaction to situation may have something to do with it although this tends to be a trait given to women in general whatever their age so the young age also doesn't help.

[tejas.livejournal.com]

Ever read Remnant Population by Elizabeth Moon? The protag is an old woman. Great book.

[gategrrl.livejournal.com]

I read through it at the book store a while ago, actually: and it's the ONLY book I can think of right off the top of my head that does feature an older woman as the protagonist.

Moon is excellent. She excels at writing women who are ordinary women with ordinary (and extraordinary) problems-but they're always *people*. And while she may incorporate romance into her books, it isn't there as a sop. It causes realistic problems and solutions and there's not White Knight syndrome or any of those obvious cliches.

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

Did I miss a fun conversation at some point?

I read both. I read from a protag female POV and a male POV. I've read and enjoyed both.

[gategrrl.livejournal.com]

It was a while back, and it was short, but it got me thinking and wondering. I think it might have even been on someone else's LJ; but as we discussed the Cal Leandro series, some of the flisters noted that they'd never touch a female POV book with a ten foot pole.

I read both, but Forcryinoutloud has many of the same points that I've been thinking about, but haven't articulated to myself. And so does Obelix and Tejas.

[tejas.livejournal.com]

I just don't care for wusses, male or female. And far too many female protags are wusses. Not to mention too stupid to live.

The bar is set far too low for female characters and it annoys me greatly. *Then* we catch flack for pointing out how poorly women are written (books, tv, movies). "You just don't want women who aren't perfect! You wouldn't complain if it was a man doing it!" No, I want women who are written *well* and I'd bitch just as long and hard if a man was behaving like a 12 year old (girl or boy) with entitlement issues.

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

I think it's a little dangerous to avoid books and stories based on whether the lead protagonist is male or female, but many of the criticisms that have been raised are valid ones.

I prefer male POV over female POV both as a reader and a writer, though I have read books from both POVs that I have enjoyed. I think what is problematic with female POV is that the reader comes into it already expecting certain biases to be written into the character. Will she be tough, but only on the surface level? Will her story end where all she wants to do is settle down with her main squeeze? Is it about rape or motherhood or breaking out of sexism?

Male character don't seem to be burdened down by those issues. They don't have the same double standards that women do. You give them love or greed or heroism and off they go. Rarely are they looked negtaively for their paths and even if they are bastards or manwhores, it's still not something we depise in them. I also think we give Marty Stus more of a free pass than Mary Sues.

Male characters I find just more interesting. That seems so shameful because can't women be interesting too?

As a writer, I think it's equally as difficult. I can speak for all writers, but I think many people have these issues and questions at the back of their minds when writing. How do I make this female not cliche? How did I make her her own person? Do I make her stronger or does that make it worse? If I make her "feminine" do I get criticized that she is holding women back? There is no right answer. There is always a wrong answer.

The simplest way to go seems to just write the character true to its motivation. If the character does want to be a mother, there shouldn't be anything wrong with it. If the character. But that is way too simplistic for reality. Female character more often than not becoming defined by one trait (love life, etc) and the richness their characters could have is left behind.

I'm not sure how that can be fixed.

And I went off in a tangent.

[tejas.livejournal.com]

When I write women characters (and I don't much in fic because I find the source material so flawed), I try to use the Ripley example. Ripley (from Alien) was conceived, at least according to movie lore, as a non-gendered character. It was only once they got to casting that Ripley became female. As a result, she was written based on the needs of the story, rather than as a character loaded down with 20th century American socio-gender baggage. The result is one of the coolest women characters in the movies.

[gategrrl.livejournal.com]

No you didn't. It's part of the entire issue, really, and takes it out of the personal realm (I am a woman: and I hate women protagonists in books) and more into the wider realm of female characters and their characterization. <<=== Bwahaha, did I just write that?! *giggles*

Anyhow, you know what I mean. Use that educated brain of yours. Help!

[sars.livejournal.com]

I can honestly say I've never thought that. I read books because they look interesting and for no other reason.

But then I tend to read a lot of classics and older books, or teen fiction since I work in secondary schools, and I kind of think fiction for young adults is way better than what is out there for adults.

But in the end, I'm not looking to analyse books when I read them.

I find it really interesting that anyone would exclude books based purely on what gender the lead is.

[nialla]

I don't exclude books with female protagonists or written by women, but I know of some who do, and some who exclude male protags and authors on the other side of the coin.

I got into a discussion about this a while back, and unfortunately it ended up being pop!feminismed to death instead of considered seriously.

My point then was we as female readers (and viewers) tend to have a duality about discussing female protags.

We want to have strong female characters. OK, what's that mean? Everyone will have a slightly different POV about it, so right from the start we're comparing with different yardsticks.

The desire to have a strong female character, as I think of her, often means I nitpick the character's flaws in great detail.

That's not to say I don't nitpick a male character's actions if he's being Too Stupid To Live, but the pop!feminism folks often see that nitpicking of females means I'm not really being supportive of strong female characters.

They seem to overlook when I point out male characters are being idiots, but I usually discuss the women in greater detail because I am one and would like to see better yet varied representation of female characters.

This is where the duality kicks in for me. I want strong female characters, and discussing it often means pointing out the flaws. So am I overlooking strengths because I'm expecting flaws?

I think sometimes I prefer a male protag simply because I'm not male. Not because I'm anti-female, but because I can easily handwave a male's idiotic moments as macho heroics, lazy plotting or outright stupidity. If a woman did something similar, I might get stuck on an "I'd never do that!" reaction.

In tv and movies, the industry is dominated by male writers. Even if there's a female protag and/or female writers involved, it's very much a group effort. A group effort dominated by white men.

For fiction, it's not quite as bad, as there are men and women who write characters of both genders just fine. They have better control of their characters, though they can also lose control of them too under the pressure of a deadline, editorial input, etc.

One thing that irritates me in fiction are authors who try to hard to create a strong female character. They focus on a few aspects -- usually physical strength, magical mojo, and sexuality -- then amp it up and expect that to meet the requirements.

What it often does is show me a character with interesting potential, but with such lopsided creation and focus, she quickly burns out whatever makes her unique. She's not well-rounded and can implode as a character if the author hasn't balanced out strengths with some weakness.

Hopefully you can get some sense out of all that nonsense. It's something I can understand in my head in a vague sort of way, but putting it into actual words is very difficult. It's defintely more about "feeling" than logic.

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

I also want to echo the sentiment here that reading about male characters is also fascinating because they are male. It's also a form of escapism since as a female reader, I am obviously not male.

However, I have that same feeling whether the writer is male or female or with my own writing. I wonder what that says about gender.

[khek.livejournal.com]

You know, its interesting. I read a lot of kids and teen books, and the gender of the character doesn't matter at all to me in those. In fact, i would guess that my reading is divided almost equally between the two, as is my appreciation of the story.

When I read adult fiction, however, I tend to go for male main characters. The exception is when I'm in the mood for a romance or one of those cozy cooking mysteries. Urban fantasy is my favorite, and rarely do I read anything wih a female chracter=mostly because they eventally turn into some kind of romance, which is not why I choose to read it.

I think I avoid female characters in general because their motivation always seems to be either romance or some kind of avoidance of romance that turns into romance, or kids and fulfilling the biological clock imperitive. That, or they go overboard trying to prove that that is NOT their primary focus in life. I like kids (or I wouldn't work witht them every day I just dont) but think everything in life is about who is sleeping with whom in order to spawn.

Male characters tend to be more focused on the plot, and less on the relationships==unless it furthers the story. For me, that's what I'd rather read. The interesting thing is that I see the same thing in kids and teens books that I see in male-oreiented fictoin: the characters are usually focused on their problem, and how to solve it, without a lot of introspection and waffling over their significant other choices.

Does that make sense? (and please ignore those awful typos...I'm typing on my asus laptop, which is alot like trying to put all your fingers on a caluculator and trying to type...

[tejas.livejournal.com]

Makes perfect sense and aligns with my general choice in reading material. I'm all about plots. I want action and adventure and if there's any romance at all, it had better be on the side and take up very little real estate in the book.